Waking to Another Sky Ch4 bit – Complicated (and some Shiny links)

“MMOs are… a little more complicated,” Thinker said carefully.

“Complicated how?” Jack shrugged. “The whole point of the game was the monsters acted like they were real, right? Hit anything hard enough, it’ll go down.”

From the polite mask Yulier’s face froze into, she didn’t think so.

Even Thinker’s good humor seemed to slip. “Oh,” he said thoughtfully. “Leeroy Jenkins.”

Silence rippled outward through the ward. Jack caught darting glances, the way people followed Thinker’s gaze and stance and looked.

Conversations started up again, but it looked like the damage had been done.

What the heck just happened?

Though on the gut-level where Jack commanded, he knew what had just happened. Two words, and Thinker had both affirmed his status as a leader qualified to make decisions for the whole Aincrad Liberation Force, and identified one particular colonel as dangerous.

So what’d he say, and why did it work? “Somebody you lost in the game?” Jack said casually.

“He was never in SAO. Lucky for him.” Thinker’s smile was just a little crooked. “Try searching online. You’ll find him. People like him… we lost most of them in the first month. Fortunately. If you’ll excuse us, I want to go check on some of the younger affiliates…. ”

Jack closed ranks with Daniel as the gamers peeled off, tilted his head toward Janet so they headed back that way. Frazzled as the doc looked, she might appreciate some backup. “What the heck did he just do?”

“Told everybody that you’re not the boss of him,” his archaeologist said under his breath. “Jack. It sounds like the game was way more complicated than killing monsters. We need more information before we tell them how simple it was.”

“So they had bits where they talked to things in the game,” Jack said, just as quiet. “Still doesn’t change the laws of physics-”

“Says the guy who snickered when Iron Man blew through an F-15 without even bruises.”

Right. Not going there. “Game or no game,” Jack stated. “Sharp and pointy hits flesh, even computer flesh, bad guy goes down. We saw that.”

“We saw what the guy who sent that message wanted us to see.” Blue eyes were dark, worried. “Video editing, Jack. How much didn’t we see?”


And for anybody who wants to check out better shiny pics than I got onto the blog….

Pearly Dragonscale

Royal Dance


49 thoughts on “Waking to Another Sky Ch4 bit – Complicated (and some Shiny links)

  1. Ouch. Thinker just told everyone in hearing distance that you’re not just stupid, you’re the dangerous kind of stupid that gets other people killed. Sucks to be you, Jack.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Physics is physics is true enough for real life. MMOs and even star gate have differences from real life.

      There’s a book, Infantry in Battle, put together by some US Army officers between the world wars. (I have a mess of a bunny for Star Wars. Outstanding research needs are 1) WWI 2) reading or watching Magi, Saiyuki, and Yona. At least it is effective as an exercise in defining big plots, breaking them into smaller ones, and figuring out how to execute plots small enough for me to handle right now.) RL as depicted by that book is not something many organizations and leaders are equipped to handle. MMORPG experience would not translate. The specs the SGC gave Kayaba would not have included those lessons, because military training probably already addresses them better than Kayaba could. (Not that what the SGC has access to is necessarily perfect, but the US military is very good, and Kayaba’s background in that isn’t strong.)

      Kayaba doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. He doesn’t see why MMO puzzle bosses and fighting game mechanics based on star gate ‘physics’ might not be perfectly adequate super soldier training. Whereas fancy complicated choreography often breaks hard in real life applications. I’m pretty sure Kayaba vastly overrates how ready the players are to go through the gate and not die in droves. That said, through the gate is not stuck deep in the middle of WWI trench warfare.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. I think that the ones that aren’t a terrible idea would probably need weeks of remedial training before they are prepared enough not to have weaknesses comparable to military who are gate virgins. But hey, Jack and Daniel went through gate virgins and both survived and killed Ra.

        And Jack hasn’t dealt with Kull warriors yet. That’s the kind of thing Kayaba would put in to match MMO tropes simply because he can justify it through Star Gate’s rubbery physics.

        One of my major issues with Kayaba is that he had this stuff in working condition two years ago. SGC could have used it then. SGC could get the most use out of it by running their military personal through it. Not only has Kayaba kept it out of the hands of the SGC for two years, his hacking and untrustworthiness mean that it will be even longer before the SGC considers it safe. That delay costs a lot of the good bringing in Kayaba could have done.

        Liked by 3 people

  2. Jack, you know better. Goa’uld personal shields showed you that sometimes, you need to hit something *different*, not harder. And I’m pretty sure there were a bunch of other examples from SG1’s encounters with the Weird.

    Liked by 2 people

      1. Well, you’ve also done a good job finding a place on the Star Gate timeline where Jack is mentally screwed up enough to be a good match for Kirito and Asuna right after the game is cleared. And good circumstances to make things worse for pretty much everyone.

        Liked by 3 people

      2. It’s not just that Thinker called Jack a Leroy Jenkins that got him in trouble. It’s also that Jack confirmed he had no idea what Thinker was talking about afterwards. So not only is Jack dangerous, but he has no knowledge of gamer jargon. Even if the players do tell him what happened, he might not even know what they’re really talking about.

        Liked by 3 people

      3. Woops, wrong spot for the above post. ^^;

        In regards with this one… someone should introduce Jack to Rouge-likes and the corner of the RPG community that plays with permadeath… SAO could really have been so much worse (SAO in Nethack?)

        Liked by 2 people

      4. I’m a roguelike fan. You’d better believe I’ve considered some of those possibilities.

        That said, Kayaba said that one of his major inspirations was Wizardry. If he is talking about the first game, that’s actually pretty scary in some ways.

        Liked by 3 people

      5. Blech, NetHack. Good thing Kayaba is on the opposite end of the prime debate on Roguelike design, or SAO never would have been cleared. Kayaba’s whole thing being that it should be “fair”, so that it’s purely the player’s ability (or lack thereof) that determines their success or failure, not programmed impossible situations.

        NetHack, on the other hand, is designed purposely so that it’s impossible to win in a single playthrough (without a walkthrough built from multiple playthroughs, which is effectively just outsourcing the extra playthroughs so doesn’t counter the argument), with key lore/quest/etc stuff purposely programmed so that you only get some of it each playthrough, and have to play more than once to get everything (and some of it is additionally keyed to “have to have done X in a previous playthrough to get a chance for Y to appear). It’s even set so that mobs don’t act the same way every playthrough, specifically to make it harder to figure out their patterns, because you’re only seeing part of their pattern in each individual playthrough.
        All because of the intellectual snobbery that “being able to figure out the patterns and win with a handicap isn’t sufficient proof of being a _truly_ dedicated and competent Roguelike player, anyone might get lucky or have good instincts. A truly dedicated and competent Roguelike player, however, should be recording every detail of every game, and be capable of noticing interrupted patterns that take multiple playthroughs to complete.”

        (I like Roguelikes, but I find the design philosophy of NetHack to be a case of intellectual snobbery and false elitism dependent more on willingness to do math/paperwork rather than actual skill at playing Roguelikes)

        Liked by 3 people

  3. So it seems Teal’c is going to be the one the games can relate to/talk to most, while Jack has to dig himself and his team out of the hole.
    Some people with knowledge about MMOs should be available in SGC, just have to get them to SG1 and get Jack to listen to them.

    Liked by 3 people

      1. One thing I have to keep reminding myself of, is that only few hours have passed since everyone woke up. So lots of improvisation/limited amount of knowledge on both sides.

        One other thing I remembered about a scene a while back: The clothing creation. Once SG1 has a chance to sit down, they should realize that something very strange was going on there, after all, creating acceptable clothing should not be easy or that quick, even if you go for something very simple.

        Liked by 2 people

  4. Yeah OW. Even if the situation gets explained later, Jack’s cred with the players just nose-dived into the bedrock.

    And it’s really going to spread because it was Thinker saying this. You know, the nice guy that trys to keep everyone on an even keel. Not the (with reason) rather twitchy Clearers.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. So, I’m gonna be honest. Of most of your latest SG1 offerings I’ve not been real impressed with how you’re presenting the Stargate side of things for a lot of reasons though I’ve not actually said anything since they are all technically in character. So when I saw that trend start repeating in this story I was a little worried that I wasn’t going to like reading this one because of that.

    The last two chapters though…I’ve been getting steadily fed up with the SAO side of things as it feels like they’re being /stupid/. This scene with Thinker, Yulier, and Jack was, I think the breaking point.

    Thinker (and I believe it was implied Yulier) were both MMO veterans before being caught in SAO. They shouldn’t have ID’d Jack as a Leroy Jenkins-type of player, but instead someone who has /zero/ MMO experience and reacted as appropriate.

    Instead they’ve just identified him as someone on about the same level as Kibaou.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. >Instead they’ve just identified him as someone on about the same level as Kibaou.>
      Remember that we are only getting snippets here. It’s possible that Jack said something earlier that Thinker brushed off only for this statement to recement it.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. “MMOs are… a little more complicated,” Thinker said carefully.

        Translation: Jack said something and Thinker is being diplomatic. Perhaps very diplomatic.

        Seriously, the vibe I’m getting from Jack is somewhat ‘Veteran of the Psychic Wars’ and somewhat Redliners.

        Send him to the rear!

        Liked by 2 people

      2. There’s also the chance that after talking with Agil and the rest that were in the first meeting with SG1 he’s deliberately choosing the more damaging view.

        Liked by 2 people

      3. “The whole point of the game was the monsters acted like they were real, right?

        How much foreknowledge does this imply?

        Would Thinker want to warn people off, and recess to consider the possibility that the SGC was the knowing backer of Kayaba?

        Liked by 2 people

    2. You’re not talking about exposing characters as not meeting real world standards for what they are, are you? When it comes to MacKenzie, she barely scratched surface of what was wrong with his treatment of Daniel Jackson. Before the movie was made, psychiatrists had started noticing that the schizophrenic skewed dim, that giftedness was vanishingly rare in schizophrenia, that gifted psychotics skewed bipolar, that the schizophrenics they caught didn’t go from zero to psychotic in 24 hours, that the negative symptoms came first, making them seem depressed; and by the time this episode aired, there was more evidence that schizophrenia was a neurodevelopmental disease that disproportionately affected people whose features and mental function weren’t within normal limits and that it wasn’t in the extraordinarily good direction, either.

      http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.2014.14040516 is tiny sliver of that literature. It postdates the episode, but it’s still there.

      Then, there’s the Tok’ra, who remind of some of the less effective charities, which makes me wonder where they get their wonderful toys. Do they steal them?

      By the way, who was paying for Daniel to be medicated to the gills and warehoused? Only Medicaid will pay for long-term care, and Daniel couldn’t have been on Medicaid.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Another way of looking at that comment: Thinker’s not saying that he thinks that, in a game, Jack would be a Leeroy Jenkins, but rather that, right now, in this conversation, he’s being a verbal Leeroy Jenkins about getting answers and making the SAO survivors fit into his worldview. Less ‘this guy would get people killed in SAO’, more ‘This guy is rushing in bullheaded and with no information RIGHT NOW in a really stupid way that is going to get people hurt, maybe very badly. Stop listening to and talking with him, pronto.”

    Given that Thinker immediately left the conversation, I think that’s what he meant by the comment in this case.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I was thinking the same think, Leeroy Jenkins is someone that doesn’t know anything about what he is jumping into, won’t listen to those that do, and will charge straight in thinking he knows what he’s doing, when that is the worst possible move. And do he because he is so certain he understands the challenge when he doesn’t have a damn clue.

      Daniel or Teal’c: “Translated? They just decided you are a REMF.”

      Liked by 2 people

      1. >Daniel or Teal’c: “Translated? They just decided you are a REMF.”>
        Please let them say that in the General’s hearing. The poor guy needs a laugh.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. “We saw what the guy who sent that message wanted us to see.” Blue eyes were dark, worried. “Video editing, Jack. How much didn’t we see?”

    It’s worse than just editing. Guy had a bunch of powerful computers, and was responsible for the code running on them. Which at a minimum was rendering everything once for everyone with eyes. (Well, probably twice given how human vision works.) He might not have been able to outright perfectly forge player actions, but there may be no reason he couldn’t have recorded them, and played them back in a carefully staged scene.

    He might well be trying to play the SGC, and he has a lot of ability to fiddle with everything he rendered for them to see.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Maybe before they talk to the players again, they need to spent five minutes on the internet and get a list of common gamer terms . . . and get a serious gamer to consult. There has got to be at least one in the Mountain with enough clearance.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Mmmm… on the one hand, Jack certainly seems to be wearing his ass hat today. OTOH, I can’t help but look forward to the Schadenfreude when Thinker realizes he slapped that tag on someone who has, with his team, nearly single-handedly prevented the End Of The World (and not “as we know it”) more than a dozen times.
    While I’m not belittling the trauma the Survivors went through, or the utter badass heroism many of them showed in rising to the occasion… for Jack and SG-1, on a scale of 1 to 10, SAO was just another Tuesday.
    Once the Survivors really grasp what SG-1 has been dealing with (before and during SAO), I expect a lot of mea culpa going around (even if no one ever admits it aloud).

    Liked by 1 person

      1. I can’t really see either side playing the ‘our situation was more dangerous then yours’ card when everything’s explained.

        That sort of belittling what the other group has gone through just leads to resentment.

        Sure what the SGC has had to deal with would have resulted in much bigger consequences for Earth but it’s not like SAO wasn’t just as lethal for the people involved.

        Liked by 1 person

  10. Oh, I don’t expect either side to play any sort of one-upsmanship like that. But the *realization* of “oh, wow, we *really* screwed up disrespecting these people” should go *both* ways. That’s what I was really going for.

    Liked by 1 person

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